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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 12:51:59 GMT -5
Ok, so I have a somewhat serious issue that I dont know if it can be fixed.
As some of you may or not know I live in a kind of dungeon underneath my soon to open restaurant. So basically all my stuff sits in a 60 m2 rectangle. And, more to the point, all electrical devices are plugged into any of the 3 outlets I have here on the bottom floor.
Now the problem is that when the motor on the mini-bar fridge I have down here starts, I get about a second of blank on my TV. That second is enough to ruin mine (and possible many other ppls) race. So far I have been plugging the fridge off the socket before I race and live with the blanks when practicing. But last night I forgot the fridge off overnight and given my track record I wouldnt be surprised if I did that again.
SO
Since I am clueless to all things men should know such as fixing cars, replacing a tap or changing a lightbulb really, I would appreciate if you guys could share any tips as to how to prevent this from happening.
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Post by Travis "Zombie" Mihm on Jul 25, 2014 14:32:43 GMT -5
@brunoportela based on my knowledge of circuits and household current flow, I'm going to assume this is what's happening;
When the refrigerator kicks in, it's sending a small current surge through the loop. When you get that sort of surge, the voltage at your small electronics drops momentarily. Your TV is likely not capable of operating at or compensating for this small drop in voltage and shuts down. Since everything works when the fridge is running, I would say to try putting your refrigerator on a surge protector. If that doesn't work, try putting your TV/Computer on a surge protector.
If that doesn't work, then you'll likely want to get an electrician (more competent than myself) over to make sure that you are getting adequate voltage to all your sockets and to try and figure out if it is in fact a current surge and why it's happening. It could be that your wiring is old and not rated for the current you're drawing through those circuits. I get pretty worried about my electronics down here during storms. I have a surge protector for my computer stuff, but everything still shuts off in the house if we get a big surge during a storm. Full shut down, have to restart everything and wait for the router to go back online... sucks. Lol.
-Travis
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 14:38:39 GMT -5
It is actually costumary in Brazil to run PC's on surge protectors... almost mandatory I would say. So the PC and the TV are hooked up in one... but I never thought hooking a surge protector on the fridge could work... it would have to be a massive one though wouldnt it?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 14:38:57 GMT -5
It is actually costumary in Brazil to run PC's on surge protectors... almost mandatory I would say. So the PC and the TV are hooked up in one... but I never thought hooking a surge protector on the fridge could work... it would have to be a massive one though wouldnt it?
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Post by Mark "WiFI" Dyall on Jul 25, 2014 20:48:12 GMT -5
This reminds of when Andrew Casey had problems when his fridge kicked in it would shut down the FFB on his fanatec wheel.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 19:43:44 GMT -5
It sounds like that fridge is drawing WAY too much power on start up, as in, it wasn't designed to be run on a standard 15A house circuit like many fridges. Or if it was, it was designed to be the only device on the circuit.
Right now, your setup is actually pretty dangerous lol, and a surge protector wouldn't do anything for you. Surge protectors protect from huge voltage spikes....like if lightning struck your home. They're designed to absorb the voltage spike and blow itself up instead of the devices plugged into it. The fridge turning on is just drawing too much current (not voltage usually). An as an example of whats happening is, lets say your outlet provides a maximum of 15A. Your tv/computer and everything plugged into it is probably drawing around 6A of current. The fridge probably draws around 6-9A when running. So as you can see that 6A + 6-9A means you're right around the maximum 15A. When big devices like fridges turn on, they almost always spike in current draw....so add in a few more amps and you're right at the limit of what the circuit can provide. So something has to give. Usually less current goes to the other devices (hence your tv/computer turning off for a few seconds), but if the draw is too large, or if you plug in a few more devices you'll blow the circuits fuse.
The expensive way to fix this is to move the fridge onto its own circuit. (Maybe there's even another circuit upstairs thats unused or not tied in with your outlet downstairs). The cheap way is to buy an Uninterruptable Power Supply (UPS). It's basically a surge protector with a built in battery and power regulator. Plug everything into that, and not only will it protect your devices from huge power surges, but it'll also protect from that fridge kicking on and drawing too much current as it'll switch from AC, to the battery to power all your devices during the time the fridge is drawing too much current. Also if your power goes out completely, you can run your devices on battery power for 10 mins or so until the battery dies.
I always use UPSs on my computers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 19:53:18 GMT -5
good stuff, Brad.. thanks for the reply.
I do keep that fridge at close to maximum power! It makes for nice cold beer and near freezing water. So perhaps if i turn it down a bit that wouldnt happen.. or at least not as often.
I thought of getting an UPS... but i was afraid the battery wouldnt kick in fast enough to prevent the TV from blinking since it happens so fast.
I think I have one at my old IT office... I'll see if it is any good and give it a go.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 20:05:15 GMT -5
They switch to battery power pretty much instantaneously, so your devices wont even notice the power has been switched. It's like unplugging a laptop from the ac adapter...the laptop still stays on and switches to battery power immediately.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 6:36:46 GMT -5
It is actually costumary in Brazil to run PC's on surge protectors... almost mandatory I would say. So the PC and the TV are hooked up in one... but I never thought hooking a surge protector on the fridge could work... As noted, a surge protector is for one type of high voltage. An usually only for one that typically does not do damage. Nothing in your post suggests that anomaly exists. Power strip has receptacle dimensions that define how much current it can provide. If a refrigerator has a mating plug, then that refrigerator is consumeing that much current or less. IOW it is not 'drawing too much power' TV flickers for two possible reasons. Either a wiring defect (ie loose wire in the wall) is causing a voltage drop. Or the refrigerator is crating noise that interferes with a digital TV signal. In both cases, these are completely different anomalies irrelevant to what any protector would do. Stop trying to cure symptoms. First identify the anomaly. For example, if a loose wire exists, then an incandescent bulb on a same receptacle would dim when the TV flickers. Bulb dims significantly if voltage drops. IOW see the problem long before trying to fix it. Unfortunately many if not most have no idea how electricity works or what a surge protector does. Brainwashing from advertising and hearsay gets a majority to recommend a protector or UPS as if it solves everything. They are actually quite ineffective for most anomalies. But big budget advertising means many know it will cure everything. Instead, identify the anomaly. Fixing it comes much later. UPS manufacturers quietly warn of not powering motorized appliances since a UPS is typically 'dirty' power. Ideal for electronics but potentially harmful to small motors. Refrigerator temperature does not affect power consumption. It consumes maximum power or consumes zero power. Lower temperature only means it consumes more energy - not power.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 9:36:17 GMT -5
Who's this guy? Anyways, welcome @westom:)
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Post by Travis "Zombie" Mihm on Jul 28, 2014 10:16:57 GMT -5
That will be the best first post EVER if it's followed by more. Lol. Welcome to the forums @westom! Hope you didn't just come here to teach us about circuits.
Also isn't electrical energy expressed in Joules, and electrical power expressed as Joules/second (Watts)? Devices don't consume power, they consume energy. Power is just a unit used to explain how fast a device consumes energy.
Electrical stuff is very hard to talk about. Most everybody grows up with a whirlwind of misinformation around them with circuits and electricity and current and voltage and yeah... Looking back I sort of wish I hadn't have sold my circuits engineering book back to the university, that bitch was useful.
-Travis
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Post by Daniel B Johnson on Jul 28, 2014 11:07:33 GMT -5
So we know where to go when iracing puts in some hybrids into the game. lol
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Post by John "Badoer" King on Jul 29, 2014 3:10:42 GMT -5
good stuff, Brad.. thanks for the reply. I do keep that fridge at close to maximum power! It makes for nice cold beer I stopped reading the thread at thiss point and left for the bar to get a beer ;-)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 21:16:46 GMT -5
As noted, a surge protector is for one type of high voltage. An usually only for one that typically does not do damage. Nothing in your post suggests that anomaly exists. I agree, as that's whats I suggested in post.Power strip has receptacle dimensions that define how much current it can provide. If a refrigerator has a mating plug, then that refrigerator is consumeing that much current or less. IOW it is not 'drawing too much power' Receptacle dimensions don't define how much current the outlet can provide. It defines a standard for devices to use. Although that standard includes a range of power specifications, a device can most definitely draw an infinite amount of current.....hence the reason we have circuit breakers, to prevent that from happening and blowing our house up.TV flickers for two possible reasons. Either a wiring defect (ie loose wire in the wall) is causing a voltage drop. Or the refrigerator is crating noise that interferes with a digital TV signal. In both cases, these are completely different anomalies irrelevant to what any protector would do. A UPS would protect from these scenarios. I agree a surge protector would not.Stop trying to cure symptoms. First identify the anomaly. For example, if a loose wire exists, then an incandescent bulb on a same receptacle would dim when the TV flickers. Bulb dims significantly if voltage drops. IOW see the problem long before trying to fix it. Unfortunately many if not most have no idea how electricity works or what a surge protector does. Brainwashing from advertising and hearsay gets a majority to recommend a protector or UPS as if it solves everything. They are actually quite ineffective for most anomalies. But big budget advertising means many know it will cure everything. Instead, identify the anomaly. Fixing it comes much later. UPS manufacturers quietly warn of not powering motorized appliances since a UPS is typically 'dirty' power. Ideal for electronics but potentially harmful to small motors. Refrigerator temperature does not affect power consumption. It consumes maximum power or consumes zero power. Lower temperature only means it consumes more energy - not power. When you take my advice in proper context, I made assumptions that Bruno isn't going to hire an electrician and spend hundred of dollars ripping his dungeon apart to rewire everything properly. That's why I said the 'cheap fix' is just get a UPS to power the tv/computer.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 22:53:13 GMT -5
Jul 29, 2014 22:16:46 GMT -4 Brad McAdams said:
When you take my advice in proper context, I made assumptions that Bruno isn't going to hire an electrician and spend hundred of dollars ripping his dungeon apart to rewire everything properly.
Nobody said or even implied $hundreds on massive rewiring. Clearly something as simple as a loose wire could explain these symptoms.
If a UPS cures that symptom, then a potential and serious human safety issue remains ignored. And that possible fault may also cause premature refrigeration failure. What he is or is not willing to do does not change what is the problem and what must be done to eliminate it.
Avoiding a reality to agree with what someone is willing to do also called business school trained mismanagement.
More likely a UPS will not cure his symptom. Not identifying a problem before fixing it often increases costs or leaves the problem unsolved. A UPS does not switching instantly. It would switch to battery long after that interruption has occurred and finished.
Shape of its power plug says what building wiring can (should)provide sufficient power. Shape of each plug keeps a layman from connecting too much load to an undersized circuit. TV interruption would be symptoms of some other problem.
Again, if a wiring problem exists, then an incandescent light bulb will identify it. Obviously no $hundreds spent on an electrician. Nobody even implied that. Identify the problem before spending $hundreds on a UPS. And before fixing anything. Interrupted TV is only a symptom of an unidentified problem.
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Post by Travis "Zombie" Mihm on Jul 29, 2014 23:24:07 GMT -5
Hmmmm....
So lets make a couple things clear. First, @westom, while I'm sure we all appreciate your exuberance in trying to find a solution to this problem, this board is not solely do discuss matters of electrical circuits and refrigeration woes. This is a forum about Black Adder Motorsport and iRacing, and our general discussion forums are more geared toward anything that team members and friends of the team may want to discuss that doesn't fit into other categories. If all you are here to contribute to is a single forum in a general discussion, I would suggest you make a final statement and be on your way unless you plan on immediately changing your tone from argument to discussion and contributing to the other areas of the boards in a positive manner.
Now that that's out of the way, I wouldn't exactly say "something as simple as a loose wire" lol. It's been my experience that a loose wire can be anything from a "Duhhhhhh could've had a V8" moment to hours of scrutinizing. I agree that a UPS is not a solution to a problem but a solution to a symptom. Many houses and facilities have issues like this, but I can't remember the last time I heard "electrical fire" in a conversation. So I wouldn't exactly say that Bruno's TV problem is going to be what kills him. After all, he has a girlfriend. A UPS would probably do just fine.
IIRC, one of the main household-uses of a UPS is for this exact problem. I'd also like to say that I don't know of very many things in the universe that switch instantly. But in this case, many UPS's are sensitive enough to have to require sensitivity calibration, because in situations with poor power supply it will frequently transfer to battery operation and reduce battery service life. Many areas have "dirty power" with small and constant sub-second power fluctuations and a finnicky TV in a circuit with a lot of load on it may simply be having trouble with the power fluctuations to begin with that have nothing to do with a loose wire, a UPS, the shape of a wall plug, or business school trained mismanagement; the minute power fluctuation from the fridge might just simply be the straw that broke the camels back for all we know.
Because none of us are in Brazil with multimeters. It could be a plethora of things or it could be one really obvious thing. Hell, I've actually had similar issues with an old TV's power adapter once.
-Travis
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 5:15:45 GMT -5
I have an idea! You all come to Brazil, multimeter in hands and nobody leaves until this thing is fixed!!!
Now on a serious note, I followed exactly ZERO of your suggestions.. I did book an electrician as I need some of the outlets in the restaurant changed but he is not coming till next week.
HOWEVER, for some magical reason, ever since I made this post the blinking stopped.
I actually only realised this now as I was reading the thread and noticd the fridge kicked in and the TV didnt blink but now as i think more about it, yesterday I raced for a couple of hours and dont remember any blinking and I didnt change anything in my house...
In any case, I really do appreciate the help you all offered - I don't think the problem is solved but i'll keep my eyes on things and at the very least i won't sound as stupid when the electrician pays a visit.
Thanks again, yall!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 7:47:30 GMT -5
An electrician may or may not find the problem based upon how many hours you want to pay him. However you have a week to save significant money. An anomaly that can intermittently cause a TV blink out can also exist constantly. Power an incandescent bulb on that same outlet. Leave it on constantly. If this anomaly exists constantly but only caused an intermittent TV blink, then the bulb will identify that anomaly every time; even when the anomly does not cause a TV to blink. The bulb will either dim or brighten identifying a specific problem that might otherwise take the electrician some time to otherwise locate. Then you need not pay an electrician to find it. Only pay an electrician to fix it. Same symptoms also occur with a weak TV signal. TV signlals (from an antenna or from cable) can vary in strength. When the signal is low, noise on AC wires can cause a blink out. When the signal is stronger, that same noise causes no blink out. An electrician does not have technical knowledge or test equipment to identify or correct this problem. So, best is to use that bulb so that an electrician will fix anything he has hardware and knowledge to fix. Don't waste $hundreds on a UPS. A magic box so many know will solve all problems because advertising and hearsay says so.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 14:06:24 GMT -5
As an industrial electrician, let me shed some light on what is happening. First, NEVER, EVER, EVER put a motor driven device on a surge protector, you are asking for trouble. Here is why: every motor, be it 110v single phase AC to a 600 v DC 3 phase induction motor experiences what is called "in rush" as the motor winds up. It takes a motor anywhere from 1 to 3 seconds to reach full rpm. This in rush results in a motor drawing up to 300% of its full load rated amps for this brief period. Yes, even a motor run by a 110v sinpac switch will draw an in rush. A refrigerator is generally an 8 amp rated motor. So, for a very brief moment, your circuit sees 24 amps drawn on it by the fridge condenser. Typically, in residential outlets, the max current capable circuits are rated @ 20 amps running on a wire rated for said amperage. What you are experiencing is voltage drop in your wiring as a direct result of the in rush when the refrigerator condenser motor kicks in. You have several options, and I will list them for you. 1. Hire a LICENSED electrician to install additional outlets for you, with a dedicated 20 amp for your fridge. 2. Put your computer on a battery back up UPS. But this still does not fix the issue of over amping your circuit, just like putting a band aid on a broken leg. See what I say in option 3. 3.Leave it. You WILL end up with an electrical fire at some point. The heating and cooling will eventually deteriorate the outer insulation on your wiring and an arc will produce a spark. The severity of the fire I cannot estimate. It may be a simple flash, only melting the immediate electric components or it may create enough spark to ignite surrounding materials. The situation is really that dire. I truly recommend step 1.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 16:27:56 GMT -5
Thanks Travis for the input! I had an electrician come in and the said pretty much what you said only he didnt explain it so well. I'm adding a whole bunch of heavy duty equipments (food processing, refrigerators, freezers and the like) here so I was pretty worried. Turns out I'm getting the whole place rewired and I'm not even paying for it! On the plus side I haven't had that problem very often (it now happens like once a week or so) so I didnt have to chose between keeping the milk or racing anymore! Thanks again for the help!
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