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Post by Marcus R Taynton on Jul 26, 2017 2:46:20 GMT -5
I'm used to standing up for my self and what I think is right, I know that I'm not a diplomat and not always say the right thing but I always say what I think regardless of risking to step on someones toes and for sure I don't take shit from anyone not even the president himself if I think he is an idiot I tell him so. Not sure if this is so swedish Luis I have alwas tried to put in 150% in all that I have done to try to learn as much as possible and being as good as I can it doesn't always mean the fastest or the strongest but I have always tried to adapt and overcome, if I can't beat you with speed I'm beating you with something else. I worked as a bouncer for more than 10 years, I'm 173cm tall or short if you will and weight 65 kg when I worked and have a black belt in Taekwon-do and practiced that for 20 years so I can take care of myself, but I have never been in a fight as a bouncer even though I have thrown out hundreds of people and rejected even more; why.. I beat you with something else. The last 5-7 year as an instructor in Taekwon-Do I couldn't practice because of severe back pain that at the end of my Taekwon-do career didn't allow me to stand up straight anymore and I couldn't even carry a package of milk but I still held my last lesson for my students the week before my surgery. Why could I do that because of knowlegde, I still had something to teach. For me it has been the same with iracing even though I don't have great talent or am the fastest I have always put in a lot of effort in to it, and the reason I joined BAM is knowlegde, I wanted to learn and I have learned a lot. When I joined BAM I couldn't build a decent setup but I read all that I could find on the forums and all over the place and now 6+ months later I can build a sort of decent setup at least enough so the BES pro 66 car wanted me to help them build setups for them. Just for the SPA I have put in more than 2000 laps and 500+ of them was for finding a setup or improve Nenads v.1.21 so it would fit the drivers of the Betsy car a bit better. I was pretty proud of my effort and my pace. My fastest lap was 0.751s slower than Johns in the betsy car and around 1.5sec slower for the average lap time and I did 126 laps and John did 27 in the Betsy car that I counted as average laps in the race. I have alwas hold John as someone that I looked up to and admired so for me that was an achievment that I was proud of. For me it has always been for the enjoyment even when I have not being that crazy fast and knowing that no one in BAM would hold that against me for not being fast or being off pace at least that was what I thought. Then when someone tells me that I have not put in enough that pisses me off big time but what's worse than that and made me absolutely furious is that it was held it against me that I'm off pace which in turn killed all the enjoyment that I felt of doing this. So I have decided to not do more than I have commited my self to which at the moment means helping the #66 BES Pro car with setups and being a reserv in the DGFX if both of them still want me. For the Betsy car I would love to run with you guys again any day but only for my own pleasure and for the fun of it, and if the Betsy guys still want/need my help I'm glad to help in any way I can. For the rest of you if you want my help, you have to ask for it, because that seems to be the way around here these days and even when you ask for it, it seem that it's not for granted that you get any and THAT PISSES ME OFF EVEN MORE and makes me feel sick and ashamed of being a BAM.
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Tommy Vandergucht
Global Moderator
"Gotta work on the nut behind the wheel before you start fixing bolts on the car".
Posts: 1,506
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Post by Tommy Vandergucht on Jul 26, 2017 5:47:44 GMT -5
Well if you are referring to me, which I think you are, then my apologies. I never wanted to hurt, offend or do whatever anyone doesn't want to anyone. Which I think I said 4 times now. I am writing this because I would like us to continue in a normal way. I know that I can be very direct and to the point, but that doesn't mean I want to harm anyone.
I will try to explain what I meant in the first place. It is no criticism, I am not saying anyone is doing anything wrong. Like I have been saying multiple times, I only want to help. If you take this in a bad way again then you misunderstood me and then I will delete this post and I will let it go.
This is what I see from my standpoint: I am by no means a talented alien or whatever. I am not fast out of the box. I have very very limited time to practice. I only had time to practice 4 hours for Spa. I want to be fast, I want to compete with the fast drivers, I enjoy being in the best team. So I have to spend the time I practice super efficient to keep up with the fast guys or they will kick me out.
Now I see your posts. And no, I don't know what exactly happened, I was not there with you. I am not saying anything is wrong. I admire you guys, having fun is all that matters! And I so applaud you for the time you invested. I also somewhat enjoy seeing how good of a team spirit you guys have created, since all the Betsy drivers seem to back each other up. I know you guys want help, you said so yourself. So I looked at things that we could do next time. I cannot change anything for Spa anymore, it is done, but I look at what can be done better next time and how can we help you so you guys can get a bit faster and have even more fun.
I look at the facts: You average laptime is 2:25.903 (not including time spent in the pits). My average laptime was 2:21.922 (not including time spent in the pits), and my teammates average even faster. And this is the exact same setup. So I see 4 seconds that can be improved. I am not saying you do anything wrong, I am saying we could improve on this. So I look at what you do different than I and my teammates and maybe we can find something we can do better next time.
Now here comes my opinion on what we can do to help you improve, and this is me helping. So hold on, don't shoot me, once again, nobody is doing anything wrong. Like it, we'll continue, not like it, I shut up and mind my own business unless you have a better idea. I see you spent about half of your time trying to find a better setup. I think the setup is not really that important. And I speak from experience now. The setup is capable of doing 2:21.922 average, there is not much wrong with that. My mindset is, if the someone else can go this fast with this setup and I cannot, then I can improve, it's not the setup that has to improve, it's me that can improve. I think that is the case now aswell.
So what I wanted for the next big event is this: We (the more experienced drivers) give you a setup well in advance. We'll make it more stable than this one, and we'll make sure the tirewear is much less, you guys don't need a car that is on the limit. Now you can forget about the setup. I know it can be very learnfull and fun to fiddle with setups. But me helping you is saying: focus more on the driving, not on the setups.
So next time you already have a setup, and you will have data, iSpeed laps, an average laptime that is your target. Now my next point would be to explain you how (I think) to efficiently spend your time to actually get better and faster, afterall that's what we want right? To get faster. And no I am not saying you do anything wrong, but I see you can improve. The problem (and I have been stuck doing this for a long time) with doing 2100 laps is that you get really really good at doing 2:25s. It's hard when you do this many laps to actually get faster. You kinda get stuck at the pace where you are. You get really good at doing the wrong thing. I learned myself very bad driving lines and very bad habits by doing millions of slow testing laps and now I am trying to unlearn things and only get faster which is hard. So it's better to learn the right things instead of learning yourself to do the wrong things. Because once you've learned to do it a certain way, it's hard to unlearn an relearn in a better way.
I think practicing exists out of 3 parts: 1: Getting up to speed (65% of the time) 2: Finding consistency at this speed (30% of the time) 3: Adjusting the setup to either improve step 1 or 2 or both (5% of the time)
To me it looks like you guys skip 1 and 2 and spend 1000+ laps (or about 50% of your time) on step 3. Please don't quote me that this is not right. I am only trying to make a point here. And I am not saying you do anything wrong, these percentages will vary from person to person depending on your weakness. But in my opinion if you don't have step 1 and 2 nailed down, it's not so usefull to do step 3. I used to spend 90% of my time in step 2 in which I got really good at driving slow, but very consistently slow. I am however super consistent now, so now I spend about 80% of my time on step 1, and the rest on step 2 and 3.
What I want you to do, and once again, my opinion. Is spend much more time on step 1 and 2 and I would prefer you to forget about step 3. So therefore my suggestion that we give you a setup that is good so you can forget about step 3. It is much more important for you as a driver, to get step 1 and 2 nailed down.
And that leads to the next point. How to do step 1 and 2? And I think this is where BAM falls short at the moment. I totally understand why you guys do what you do, why you spend so much time testing setups. Because there is no guide, no tutorial, nobody saying how to get faster.
And the reason for BAM falling short is this: Everyone is here as a volunteer. We like to race, we like to have fun, we like to do racing. That's what we all want to do. Sometimes we feel like helping others and we spend some time doing that. But our main thing we want to do is racing. Also BAM is continuing to grow. We are always looking for the best ways on how to do things. And we continue to face new challenges every month. 3 years ago we did the first 24h races. Nobody told us how to do it. Nobody told us how to practice. Nobody told we could make a schedule, so some guys ended up driving the whole night. So we learned that it might be usefull to plan for these things and now we have a schedule. We are always trying to find out how we have to do things. Some things go right, we do it again, some things go wrong, we learn and do it better. We did so many stupid things during these races. But now, we have reached a point where we get more and more structure for these races. That's why you see John posting excel sheets and lists and things. That's why Sven made the excel sheet that you used during the race. That's why we invented car leaders. That's why the Betsy car exists. That's why the post Spa race topic exists, to find things to improve for next time. A lot of these things came from me shouting and being direct on the forum. Sometimes saying things that can improve results in people feeling bad because they feel they did something wrong. Which is not my intention, I just want to see BAM, as a team, improve. These things take time. And you see the top teams, that have done it a few times now, that know what to do, that know how to use the tools at hand, they do races without major problems. Why? Because they learned it already.
And now that we are starting to find good ways to do these races, we should start transferring our knowledge to you guys. My knowledge is focus on the driving part. Step 1 and 2, not on 3. Only when you have 1 and 2 nailed down, you go to step 3.
The thing we have to do now is help you guys on how to do step 1 and 2. Which is as simple as writing a short page on the things we do to get up to speed. And believe me, that are totally different things than doing 2100+ laps. How do I know to get up to speed, I don't know, also this is trial and error and I did many stupid things. But I do what works for me, and I still learn different ways to get faster. This is a continuing development. Unfortunatly Michael Schumacher or Senna never told me how to become a World Champion, and even if they did I would not have the talent. Depending on how you and maybe other react, I think we should invest time in creating such a tutorial. I think we should help you guys out by taking away step 3. But for me investing time to do that, will depend on your reaction and the reaction of others. If people start flaming me everytime I think something could go better next time, I will find very little motivation. I understand I can improve on how to deliver my messages to not upset anyone.
Sorry for the long post, but that is because I care.
Tommy
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Post by Marcus R Taynton on Jul 26, 2017 12:38:39 GMT -5
Then we are in the same boat we are too direct both of us sometimes but as you said we want more or less the same thing at the end. The biggest misunderstanding in this is what I think, the work with the setup. I did the work I invested 500+ laps not the Betsy team (because they needed their practice) most because I enjoy doing that but also and the main reason was that we had an issue with the rear tyres that we couldn't solve in any other manner so thats why I started to look into that but I also know that I couldn't rebuild the setup too much because that would have ruined the practice and time invested from the team already. So for me doing 500+ laps fiddling with setup is fun that's why I do it but I did that after I got to the point where I can go as fast as I think I can or at least feel happy with. I don't have the need for being that super fast as long as I can keep up with the guys in the car I'm running with I'm happy (and maybe that is my achilles heal) if that means I need to do 1000 laps of practice to get to that point I will make that effort but certainly not less. I also know that I could be more effective when it comes to practice but that will only get me away from the rig One thing that I have learnt about setup is this, and this is the main reason why I started to make my own setups. There is no such thing one fits all and most of the time the newbies can't drive an alien or a fast guy setup because they don't have the skills and for more the car control. What they need is a super safe and easy to drive setup and that doesn't mean we can drive this setup with this time so that means you guys shoul be able to do that aswell or very close to it so learn to drive the bloody setup. what we should do is give them a setup and if they feel that they need to change that to feel safe we do that and when we have done that then we practice and we practice alot. That was not the case here no matter what you guys say about it. First of all it was overdamped and had some issues with the damper bottom out sometimes I tried every singel settings when it came to try to take some heat off the tyres and nothing help except from changing the dampers not even try to just drive the car around the track with no stress on it what so ever helped. I agree on more or less everything you suggested except for the setup part and think it's great that someone cares and want to help. What I don't like was that you used my stats from the race and tried to used that to make your point and made me look bad when your own stats was even worse except for a spin. You have nearly 3 times as much irating than me so of course that would be a huge difference in speed but it should also be a difference in stats to your benefit not mine and that was not the case here and that pissed me off more than anything. when it comes to the Betsy team yes we are probably one of the strongest team in BAM when it comes to our commitment and we stand up for each other no matter what and we always try to help each other out no matter the cause. never the less if you are willing to invest some time to teach me I'm willing to learn
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